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by: Luis

09/09/07 @ 12:25:19 PM MDT


Don't miss the debate in the comments including Mason's response -johne 

SAFER amazes me because they manage to take a cause I fundamentally support -- ending the "war on drugs" stupidity as it relates to marijuana -- and package their campaign in a way that makes me roll my eyes and wonder how anyone can take them seriously.  An e-mail landed in my in-box the other day from SAFER, criticizing the Denver City Council for working with Coors Brewing Company, which SAFER claims promotes a "more dangerous drug" at "city-operated venues frequented by children."

A "dangerous drug"?  Coors??!!?  It's more like making love in a canoe

What's up with the "won't someone please think of the children" argument?  Apparently, it's to attack as hypocrites members of the Denver City Council who oppose SAFER's ballot initiative to make marijuana prosecution officially the lowest priority of Denver law enforcement, on the ground that the initiative sends the wrong message to children.

The problem is that arguments based on labeling your opponents as hypocrites almost never do much to promote the merits of the position you are advancing.  In this case, one could avoid being a hypocrite by opposing both the City's relationship with Coors Brewing and the SAFER initiative.

Besides, rumor has it that Mason Tvert serves beer at parties.  Would that make him a hypocrite?  Maybe, but the point is that there is nothing wrong with serving beer at parties if people enjoy it in moderation.  However, the SAFER message seems to be that if you are going to act with a complete lack of self-control, you are better off using marijuana than alcohol.  In my opinion, it would be much more persuasive for the legalization advocates to argue that marijuana, like beer, can be enjoyed responsibly in moderation. 

Luis :: SAFER's strategy makes no sense


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Mason Tvert here... (4.00 / 1)
The point being made when it comes to Coors is not that I/SAFER think beer is bad or the devil, as you'd have readers think.

Rather, it is that the Council members and the Mayor's parade of drug counselors have sworn that simply changing our marijuana laws to allow adult use sends the indirect message to kids that it's okay to use marijuana.

Yet this same Council is willing to allow an alcohol company to advertise an alcoholic beverage directly to kids! After all, if its an enticing message to adults (which is presumably what all ads for beer are) and kids are seeing it, it's a direct call for them to drink alcohol.

Do I drink from time to time? Absolutely. Do I serve alcohol to adults at parties at my house? Absolutely. Have I ever failed to forcefully make this clear? NO.

Do I promote or support promoting alcohol or marijuana use to children? No. Have I ever said adults should not be allowed to use alcohol? No. In fact, I've made it publicly clear on multiple occasions that I'd fight equally hard for alcohol to be legal and not prohibited, had that been the case. In my opinion, I'd say this keeps me clear of the hypocrite label.

The real problem is that I can ONLY legally serve alcohol to adults at parties. I wish I was allowed to offer adults the option of legally using a less harmful drug in marijuana, but then I'd be a drug dealer with felony convictions. The same can hardly be said about the workers at the Coors concession stand in the Coliseum.

Why do you have such a problem with us pointing out something that is an undeniable fact? (Marijuana is less harmful than alcohol). If you want to point out the harms of marijuana -- that people shouldn't drive while intoxicated, that it restricts airways in the lungs, that it can be harmful for adolescents, etc. -- I have no problem with that. So why do you flip out when we point out that alcohol contributes to serious social problems? You can still brew your beer and use it responsibly. But many people do not act so responsibly, and alcohol is a drug that happens to make people go from responsible to irresponsible as they drink more. Why do you frame this entire issue and campaign around your personal interest in alcohol?

The fact remains, you obviously know the relative harms of marijuana and alcohol, and you know that adults could responsibly use marijuana just like they can alcohol. Hence you support reform. But others -- in fact, most others -- do NOT know this. Opponents of marijuana reform think marijuana is a deadly addictive drug that cannot be used under any circumstances.

Is your proposed strategy of suggesting adults be able to use this deadly, addictive drug responsibly going to sway people? Probably not. But if it's put in perspective and people learn that it is less deadly and less addictive than alcohol, they might be more open to the suggestion that adults should be allowed to use it.

If you want to sit down for a strategy session -- or just sit down and actually hear what I have to say, for once -- please let me know.

The fact remains that this initiative would change marijuana laws you want changed. Are you going to oppose it because you don't like the spokesman or the message of the campaign? Would you oppose a measure that you knew would result in progressive, positive immigration reform because you didn't like how it was being run? I highly doubt it, based on your previous reporting, but I hardly expect you'd be opposing it.

I know for a fact that many of our volunteers and supporters don't love the marijuana vs. alcohol angle. But they support the changes we're working to make, thus they support the campaign. Rather than sit around bitching about how things could be done better, wondering when a 100 percent perfect campaign that fits their personal beliefs will roll around, they seize the opportunity to help and do whatever they can to bring about the actual policy changes they wish to see.

I support your right to disagree and write what you will -- two freedoms that rank far above the rights to substance use, in my book -- but I wish you'd consider why you only wish to write negatively about an issue you purportedly support.


Because you're doing harm (0.00 / 0)
I see the disclaimer on your site that says that SAFER is not against alcohol.  But then every post, every press release, talks about the harms of alcohol.  As far as I am concerned, you're doing damage, not helping.  Echoing the arguments of MADD against alcohol doesn't help the anti-prohibition cause for either marijuana or alcohol.  In the specific case of the CU vs. CSU game, I would think you would acknowledge that the students who had alcohol related arrests were very likely drinking illegally, and that the 21 year old drinking age promotes surreptitious drinking of large amounts of hard liquor instead of responsible public beer drinking.  Instead you act like they were all drinking Coors with the approval of the government.

As long as you promote legalization solely by attacking alcohol use, people like me will be no more than grudging supporters.

Illegal is not a noun


[ Parent ]
Once again... (0.00 / 0)
Talking about the harms of alcohol doesn't equal being anti-alcohol. Moreover, MADD actually pushes for changes to laws to make alcohol less available and to increase penalties for alcohol use. We do neither. We do not suggest penalties should increase and we do not fight to increase them.

Labeling anyone who talks about the harms of alcohol as anti-alcohol is incredibly irresponsible and selfish.

As for the CU-CSU game...

You said "we act like they were all drinking Coors with the approval of the government."

They WERE! There is a huge tailgate party where people of all ages are drinking before the game. Why not ID people to get into a drinking area? Rather, it's all open to everyone and drinking is everywhere. This IS government sponsored Coors drinking.

Finally, do you think alcohol is going to somehow become illegal? Give me a break. You'd be hard-pressed to find 2 members of Congress who think alcohol should be made illegal, and it is now commonly accepted by just about everyone that alcohol Prohibition FAILED.

How can you even suggest it is a possibility?


[ Parent ]
Angles (0.00 / 0)
If you know for a fact that many of our volunteers and supporters don't love the marijuana vs. alcohol angle, there must be some other angle that you could potentially convert people.  I know there are other arguments, so don't respond with them.  Look at the main page of SAFER Colorado and show me where there is any other talking point.  It's all "alcohol is worse".

Once you are 21, the government laws state it is legal to drink alcohol if you choose, and are not forced to.  That is approval of the government, just like approval to drive a car by getting a license.  A tailgate party at a football games isn't sponsored by the government.

To Luis: Awesome Monty Python reference.


[ Parent ]
Staying the course (0.00 / 0)
Asking SAFER to change it's strategy is like asking President Bush to leave Iraq.

But really, our organization is organized around this message. We've only been in existence for a little less than three years, and I'd say we've come pretty far in that time. We ran a campaign that made Denver the first city in the country to vote to remove all penalties for adult possession, and we garnered more than 41 percent of the statewide vote the first time the issue's been voted on. Nevada was in the 30s it's first time, then the low 40s, and now 44 in 2006. It's a general rule of thumb that support goes up about 1 percent every year or so (eg. Denver approved I-100 with 54 percent, then Amend. 44 with 55 percent).

For the most part, our supporters and volunteers -- at least those who ask -- have all been satisfied by our reasoning for doing what we do. Moreover, campaigns should rely on volunteers and supporters for volunteering and supporting, not for developing strategy and carrying it out. That would be like a candidate framing his campaign on the suggestions of Joe Schmo who thinks you should really focus on the issues he thinks are most important.

I find it fascinating that people are so quick to tell you that you're doing it "wrong," when it's something that hasn't been done in our lifetime.

You cannot expect (or base a campaign on the expectation) that this is an issue that is going to be decided in one election. It's going to take years.


[ Parent ]
Yay for people! (0.00 / 0)
You have a much different philosophy in organization than I do.  I am not going to even comment in this thread anymore, because if you don't listen to the volunteers, the electorate's opinion probably only counts at the voting booth.

[ Parent ]
In other words... (0.00 / 0)
This marijuana vs. alcohol education campaign is not aimed at changing your mind. You're a supporter who is expected to support the changes you say you want to see.

This campaign is targeted at opponents and people on the fence who still believe what they've heard about marijuana for the past 70+ years.

Here's an analogy I like to use:

If someone's awake and you jostle them, they might get upset (as you have). But if they're asleep and you jostle them, they might actually wake up.


I get that (0.00 / 0)
you're going for shock value with the constant negativity about alcohol, but at this point it is just old.

Illegal is not a noun

[ Parent ]
This is music to my ears (0.00 / 0)
We have made it abundantly and publicly clear from the beginning that our organization is not  out to change marijuana laws, but to change people so that they want to change marijuana laws. Getting people to understand the relative harms of marijuana compared to a legal and widely accepted drug like alcohol is tantamount to this goal.

Thus, we have worked to get a specific message out as much as possible -- Marijuana is safer than alcohol.

Your posting this suggests we've done a damn good job. And for some reason, despite this getting old and being so damaging to alcohol's legality, there has been not one discussing of increasing penalties for alcohol or somehow rescinding its legal status.

In fact, I have worked closely with one particular individual who was hoping to scratch Colorado's Blue Laws so that alcohol is available on Sundays. I couldn't agree more and even offered my support and willingness to help with that.

I also support 1) lowering the drinking age to 18 and removing the taboo from alcohol use, 2) allowing alcohol use during the first half of sports events (as opposed to not at all) because it would lead to less bing drinking before the game.

As you can see, I/SAFER is hardly anti-alcohol. We're pro-safety and reason.

If for some reason there is an effort to make alcohol illegal as a result of our work, please let me know so I can help you fight it. That would be far more productive than just claiming you were pro-alcohol.


[ Parent ]
Prohibition unlikely... (0.00 / 0)
to say the least.  But, as a criminal defense attorney for 15 years, I can say that, statistically, over 50% of my cases have involved alcohol use/abuse (higher for violent crimes), compared with about 2% involving marijuana use (this excludes simple possession and distribution crimes). 

Then again, I like to drink good beer.  And, I like to keep my lungs clean.  Maybe somebody will come up with a beer brewed with hemp?  Just kidding, for our government watchers...

Casey Mulligan


[ Parent ]
Never mind... (0.00 / 0)
Here it is:

http://ndsn.org/mayj...

Of course, without THC.  Beyond belief.

Casey Mulligan


[ Parent ]
I still don't understand why Mason (0.00 / 0)
kept bringing up the "pot is safer than alcohol" argument which IMHO is probably one of the weaker ones.

So here is my Monday morning quarterbacking all the way from another state.

The argument that should have been ran is we have a limited amount of law enforcement resources and we can either use them on the local pothead chilling in their house OR we can use them to go after the local violent criminal...make your choice folks (the other choice is raising taxes to do both but I don't think any politician is going to touch that)

Tell suburbanites that pot is safer than alcohol and watch the eyes glaze over but put the image of a rapist/ax murder/child molester going free because the police are worrying about a couple of potheads and watch ever soccer mom make a bee-line to the voting booth.

I live in the state with the greatest snow on earth.


Dead-end strategy (0.00 / 0)
People arguing for marijuana reform have been focusing on this "waste of law enforcement resources" message for 30+ years and marijuana is still illegal. This is because too many people believe it is so harmful it must be illegal.

Would a person who thinks marijuana should be a crime change their mind because someone tells them it isn't an important crime? That's like telling a lifelong Republican they should vote Democratic without giving them any reason.

We are providing people with a reason why marijuana laws are a waste of law enforcement resources.

Moreover, as someone who's been doing this for a few years, I can certainly tell you that eyes NEVER glaze over. Eyes light up far more on this message than any traditional "waste of law enforcement resources" message. This is because everyone drinks or accepts that adults should be allowed to drink. They must now stop and think about it -- why can adults use alcohol and NOT marijuana? Why MUST it be a crime for an adult to use marijuana?

When people think, we win.


[ Parent ]
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