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by: Luis

06/28/07 @ 08:20:09 PM MDT


As today's front page post mentioned, we're going to have a primary to see who the Democratic nominee will be to take on Marilyn Musgrave in the 4th CD next year.  I don't want anyone to think that Angie Paccione should be considered the candidate that has the support of the Colorado blogosphere locked up.  Now, one of the other candidates, Eric Eidsness, embarrassed himself by coming to this blog and insulting the people who participate here -- for being blog readers -- in this trainwreck of a post and comment thread.  He's not to be taken seriously, but there is yet another candidate in the race:  Betsy Markey, who already has the endorsement of Rep. John Kefalas of Fort Collins and Stan Matsunaka, who was the person who really proved that Musgrave is vulnerable with his run against her in 2004.

I don't know why Kefalas and Matsunaka aren't supporting a Paccione rematch against Musgrave in 2008, but she lost me during the Special Session of 2006.  When the state legislature's Democrats (or at least, most of them) decided to abandon the party's stated position against the Tancredo-Lamm anti-immigrant ballot initiative (the heart of which was revived as HB-1023 after the Colorado Supreme Court threw out the initiative in a lawsuit brought by progressive activists), Angie Paccione was front and center and wanted everyone to know it:

Luis :: Why Not to Support Angie Paccione

 

 Key bills cosponsored by Paccione include House Bill 1023, which limits state services to illegal immigrants, effective August 1, as well as ballot questions that ask voters to crack down on unlawful employers and to hold the federal government accountable for enforcing immigration law. Along with Rep. Judy Selano, Paccione was an original sponsor of House Bill 1017, a cornerstone of the session’s legislation.  “We’re going beyond what other states have done, and we’re doing what Washington hasn’t done,” Paccione said. “Congress would do well to follow our lead on immigration reform.”

HB-1023 is the law that has required Coloradans to provide proof of citizenship to get low flow toilet rebates, has cost the state millions of dollars with no effect on immigration, and is now a national example of how not to reform immigration law.  It should have been obvious at the time that the bill wouldn't do anything, because it was based on the racist myth that immigration is driven by lazy Mexicans wanting to come to the USA to soak up taxpayer paid benefits.  Here's what Angie Paccione had to say about that in July 2006:

Illegal immigrants don’t deserve special benefits from our government, and this measure will put an end to that practice,” Paccione said. 

. . . 

By preventing illegal hiring and ending special benefits, we’re taking away the incentives for people to illegally cross our borders,” Paccione said. “This legislation is a good complement to other measures the federal government needs to be taking, including improved border security.” 

  I think anyone who says this kind of crap should be drummed out of the Democratic Party.  Fortunately, we will have the opportunity to do just that during this primary.



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Why stop with Angie? (4.00 / 2)
Anyone responsible for problems from the special session shouldn't be taken seriously by voters or members of the Democratic Party in my opinion.

I couldn't agree more (4.00 / 1)
This applies fully to Joan Fitz-Gerald (although I'm not sure even her press releases were this toxic; I haven't looked). The difference is, frankly, she doesn't seem to have any on-line support at all. I want to do a post that the Howie Kleins of the world can read and think twice before they keep supporting Paccione this time around.

Illegal is not a noun

[ Parent ]
Great idea. (4.00 / 1)
I know we all welcome the thought of a Republican majority in the State House and Senate.

Kiss your progressive values goodbye. Just the small price we will all pay when you two finish with the purge.


[ Parent ]
Last time I checked (4.00 / 1)
My job wasn't to further the agenda and influence of the Democratic Party. But I guess in some cases it's easier blame those who point out serious problems than to address them head on.


I'm not calling for any kind of â??purge,â?? I just happen to think that any politician who uses such inflammatory language (and worse, catastrophic policy making) against the immigrant community should not be taken seriously.


They won't receive my support, but then again, I'm just one human being sick and tired of the bigotry that is seeking to reach a higher tier of legitimacy in this state.

[ Parent ]
My mistake. I apologize (0.00 / 0)
for assuming you were a Democrat. I guess I assume most people blogging on here are Dems and not Republicans or 3rd party members. Bad assumption.

It seems to me that if you want their (the Democratic Party) agenda to change, it usually helps if you try to further that by doing something constructive, particularly other than calling for all of them to be ignored "by voters or members of the Democratic Party."

Oh and FYI, I'm equally sick of bigotry. I just choose to stay and fight and see if I can't get my party to move further towards what I see are better alternatives, rather than blacklist them.


[ Parent ]
Well... (4.00 / 1)
I'd assume that most people blogging on here are Democrats. But that's not the point at all.

This isn't about parties, it's about bigotry and adversity. The former was a apparent in the special session held nearly a year ago, and the latter was a result of the destructive laws that were passed.

 

The Democrats had a majority right? I know the Governor technically called the session, but none of those laws would have been given life if it weren't for the consent of members in the Democratic Party. That's just a fact. It was an election year and the conservative 527 groups were harping on immigrant "criminals" so much that those running in tight districts were scared.

 

So they acted. Some Democrats wanted to show the voters that they were "just as tough" as Republicans on the issue, and now we live in a state with arguably the most restrictive and ineffective immigration laws in the entire nation.

 

Legal residents have been evicted from their homes, and two laws have proven completely ineffective in regards to trying to sue the federal government for immigration costs and  requiring local law officials to report every suspected undocumented immigrant to ICE. Discrimination is worse on the job for Latinos because employers are not wanting to take the chance of an valid documents coming up fake.

 

As if that wasn't enough, the Democrats had the perfect opportunity to review and repair these laws but failed to do so this session. In fact, the only bill that would have fixed the problems with the Department of Revenue (where legal residents and the homeless were denied I.D.s due to more stringent document requirements) was vetoed by the Governor.

 

Many immigrants, legal residents, and poverty stricken individuals have been adversely affected over...politics. Because the Colorado Democratic Party wanted to get tough on those "fence-hopping,  law-breaking, illegals." It's just a fact.

 

So I guess the question to those who belong to the Democratic Party is...how much is too much?

I would be genuinely interested in what you feel is the most constructive way to address this issue. It would seem to me that the most persuasive thing would be votes and support.



[ Parent ]
In all honesty, I'm not sure, (4.00 / 1)
mostly because I'm having the same crisis of conscience on a different topic--Iraq. I'm trying to convince myself that joining a 3rd party, cutting off funds to Democrats or moving to Canada are not viable options for me and yes, I have actually considered all three--that's just how disgusted I am with the continuous capitulation by the Dems in Washington.

To me, these two issues and what the Dems have done with them (in our State Legislature and in DC) are quite similiar, in the way it has taken the Democratic Party longer to catch up with the average voter, in the way the Dems have squandered using their political power once they achieved a majority in both the House and Senate, and the way in which they continue to believe that they must move to the right of the issues.

The way I am personally addressing this issue is to notify by email or voice mail, each legislator that got it wrong, present my POV, explain my disappointment, and continue to offer support when they vote right.

This is one of the few issues that I disagree with Angie about. I did not support the special session last year regarding immigration. In fact, I'm to the left of just about everybody but Luis on this one.

I know how deeply and personally Angie understands prejudice and racism--I'm guessing she understands it a hell of alot better than I do, mostly because she has experienced it first hand most of her life. And I am also very much aware that she is not in any way, shape or form, a bigot.

My hope is that she moves further left on immigration but if she doesn't, I'm not willing to throw a truly progressive Dem under the bus.

I don't tend to be a purist and by that I mean that I don't base my actions on one vote on one issue. I look at the overall record and then decide if that legislator still gets my time or my dime.

For example, in Joe Lieberman and Ken Salazar's cases, they will get nothing from me but scorn. They aren't wrong on one or two issues--they are consistently on the wrong side of progressive values on everything from the Iraq war to torture, to filibustering Court appointments, to supporting our current criminal, Attorney General Gonzales. 

When you get that much wrong, you lose me. Period.

I don't think I have the answers, Em Rosa. I mostly just believe that to throw truly decent, good legislators under the bus because they got it really, really wrong on this one issue is akin to cutting off my nose to spite my face.


[ Parent ]
I will give Ken Salazar some props. (4.00 / 1)
He is planning on going after Bush's nominee for the Beuraeu of Land Management because of the Roan Plateau issue. 

If You Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules!!!!

[ Parent ]
Well, (0.00 / 0)
I don't think CO-04 should ever have been competitive, but Musgrave was so tone deaf, and Bush so toxic, we're able to make it competitive.  If Dems were going to take CO-04, we'd have done it in '06.  While I don't think deep down Musgrave has changed much, her public perception has.  As Pols called her, is it the "new" Musgrave?

New or not, Musgrave is actually starting to do the base, simple, any damn politician would do type politics, and doing things that might "buck" party lines, but definitely represent the interests of most in her district regardless of political persuasion.

Now if Musgrave since '06 was action like Lamborn since '06, I'd think maybe we'd Dems have another chance at it. 

I just can't see a Democrat winning the seat if there is a Republican candidate with just a smidgen of responsibility and sense of self preservation in the district.  Musgrave didn't use to have that, but her recent actions seem to indicate she has learned something.  Maybe Musgrave realizes the RNCC ain't going to bail her out again.

SoapBlox - the new blog framework.


and it's not so much (0.00 / 0)
that she's bucking the GOP, but she's actually working with the other folks in the Colorado Congressional delegation to push for things that benefit her district specifically, like the Pinon canon thing.

SoapBlox - the new blog framework.

[ Parent ]
Actually... (0.00 / 0)
...I thought I read that they were giving her money.  They haven't totally left her to fend for herself.

If You Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules!!!!

[ Parent ]
either way (0.00 / 0)
if they giver her money or not, the RNCC shouldn't have to spend that much money on a district that is so Republican.

SoapBlox - the new blog framework.

[ Parent ]
I think Musgrave is still vulnerable (4.00 / 1)
And we ought to be thinking about the kind of representative we want in there. This track record of hard triangulation under pressure does not bode well for how Angie Paccione would perform in this seat.

Illegal is not a noun

[ Parent ]
Not really. (0.00 / 0)
According to a recent article in the Denver Post, the following is anything but true:

and doing things that might "buck" party lines, but definitely represent the interests of most in her district regardless of political persuasion.

She has a current voting record of 96% with the Bush administration, voted against minimum wage, voted against stem cell research, voted to strip global funds for AIDS programs that including contraception.

She may be painting lipstick on her bi-partisan pig, but I would hope that most folks on this blog would educate themselves on her real record before claiming she is representing the interests of her district.

This is my district and she sure as hell isn't representing me or anyone else I know, other than right-wing Christian fundamentalists.



[ Parent ]
how many Republicans (0.00 / 0)
voted for Mr. Eidsness last election?  If Eidness is a Dem, I'd bet many of those Republicans would rather vote Musgrave in '08 then for him.  When he was an independent, voting for him was a pox on Musgrave, but not actually supporting the opposition.

SoapBlox - the new blog framework.

Once again (4.00 / 1)
Once again, it's disappointing you continue to ignore Angie's entire record. For instance, millions of dollars was spent attacking Angie for supporting a Colorado-level DREAM Act. Her own special session bill, HB 1017, dramatically increased penalties on illegal employers and she constantly focused on employers following the law.

Regarding HB 1023, are you planning to "drum out of the Democratic Party" all of these folks: Romanoff, Benefield, Borodkin, Buescher, Morgan Carroll, Cerbo, Coleman, Curry, Gallegos, Green, Hodge, Jahn, Andy Kerr, Larson, Lindstrom, Marshall, McFadyen, Merrifield, Paccione, Pommer, Ragsdale, Riesberg, Solano, Soper, Todd, Vigil, and Butcher, and Fitz-Gerald?

And you might as well criticize just about every 2006 state house campaign while you are at it, because their commercials included plenty of "tough on immigration" rhetoric. They weren't up on TV as much, so it was easy to miss.

And yes, Angie is against amnesty.


Short answer: Yes (4.00 / 1)
Frankly, it's them or me. The Democrats can't be both the party of Latinos and the Other Party That Hates Brown People. And since the La Raza Unida Party approach has already been tried and didn't work, the obvious answer is to take over the Democratic Party. We need a top to bottom weeding out of the party, like what happened in the South with the Dixiecrats' migration to the Republican Party. All Angie's alleged support of the DREAM Act shows is that she is completely unprincipled. If you believe, as she claimed to, that government aid to undocumented is a magnet that must be stopped, then it is completely incoherent to turn around and say undocumented children should be allowed in-state tuition. Wouldn't Mexican parents sneak over here so their kids could get an education? All that tells me is that she'll say anything if she thinks it will help her get elected. And that means we have no idea what she would actually do in office.

Illegal is not a noun

[ Parent ]
No, it really doesn't (4.00 / 1)
To say that arbitrarily punishing children is bad policy is not unprincipled. And Angie never called for stopping all government aid to undocumented immigrants. (In fact, she helped stop a move by the Lundberg crowd to ban inoculations to illegal immigrants.) I won't disagree that HB 1023 has been a mess and ought to be repealed wholesale, but I don't think you are in as strong a position as you claim when it comes to attacking someone personally. HB 1023 is the quintessential example of unintended consequences that come from hasty policy making.

You've made pretty clear that wholesale amnesty of everyone in the country illegally is your threshold of goodness. A lot of people -- myself included -- will never meet your threshold. Perhaps I ought to be drummed out myself.


And I would be wary of issuing purge calls. Ideological pogroms are the reason the GOP is such a festering mess. And when it comes to purity tests, I think it is someone like Ken Salazar who stands the most to lose.



[ Parent ]
I guess it comes down to this (4.00 / 1)
We have a divide between those who think it's OK to promote Mexican hating for the greater good, and those whose idea of the greater good necessarily excludes Mexican hating. I'm in the latter group.

Illegal is not a noun

[ Parent ]
Oh come on, Luis. (0.00 / 0)
You don't really believe that, do you? That's so extreme, so purist in nature, I'm guessing it's based in the emotion of the moment.

Think about this for a second, okay?  You're saying that Merrified, Paccione, Morgan O'Carroll, Romanoff, Solano are all racists? That they all promote "Mexican hating for the greater good?" That they should all be purged from the Democratic Party, because they see the issue of immigration differently than you and I?

I don't want to put words in your mouth here but I truly don't believe that you want these  people purged out of our party. That smacks of Stalinism and I simply can't believe you are that extreme or that purist in your views.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think better of you than this and would hope we can all take a minute to cool off and look at this issue with cooler tempers.

This has been an extremely shitty month to be  a Democrat--from the Iraq spending bill, to the decisions from the Supreme Court yesterday. I think we are all feeling the fatigue of 6 1/2 years of the Bush regime and maybe it's being reflected in our comments today, including mine. I'm in a downright depressed mood after yesterday's decision that basically threw out the Brown vs. BOE decision. I can hardly believe I am seeing it happen.

Anyway, I hope you know that I do think highly of you, even if we don't agree about Angie and that I know this has been an extremely disappointing week for you and me both.


[ Parent ]
The longer version (4.00 / 1)
of my smart ass Short Answer: Yes post would be no, of course I am not calling for a Stalinist purge. It's the idea, and not necessarily the people, that has to go. I think the formation of a Hispanic caucus, which I interpret as a way to enable group resistance to efforts to roll the Hispanic Dems on issues like this, is an important step in the right direction. But as long as there are no electoral consequences for people who support this garbage, it will continue. So defeating Paccione and Fitz-Gerald will send a very healthy message to the rest of the bunch, which includes a lot of people who I am sure knew better but went ahead with the Special Session package anyway. To be even more specific, I know Andrew Romanoff is a very smart policy guy and I don't believe for a minute he seriously thought the Special Session laws would have any effect on immigration. He knew better but made a cold political calculation, and I want to change the calculation.

Illegal is not a noun

[ Parent ]
I agree with 100% with that--I want to change (0.00 / 0)
the calculation and I think there was plenty of that going on with the special session.

The only difference for me, and it is a big one, is that I don't want to throw good progressives under the bus, like Angie and Joan, for supporting one bad idea when they have led the way with so many good ones.

This is a tough, emotional issue for alot of folks, including me, so I appreciate you responding and doing so in a reflective and thoughtful way.

Thanks for that, Luis.


[ Parent ]
Well, how do you propose to change the calculation? (4.00 / 3)
It's a valid question. If we don't make it politically painful for politicians to make the calculations that they currently make, how are they going to do so? Asking nicely won't do the trick, Pager.


In addition, I don't think you can compare immigration to the Iraq War. While the political calculations that have been made on both issues by folks on our side of the fence have been disappointing to us, in the case of the war, two things have been clear to me:


1. The war *will* end--it's a matter of when, not if.


2. Ending this war, especially with this Administration, will be a long and painful process. No one piece of legislation will end it, and it will take multiple efforts to do so.


When it comes to immigration, what's patently clear to me, but perhaps not to you, is that on our side, immigration (and what we do with undocumented people) is simply not a burning issue to many people. Unless you're Latino, or you deal directly with undocumented populations, your interest and concern towards this issue is likely to be theoretical, not practical.


It is for that reason that politicians on our ideological corner made the calculation they made when it came to the special session. On the hierarchy of issues, progressive folks don't mention immigration in the same way they mention Iraq. They don't. I've seen the numbers.


You could say the same thing about the immigration package that was just killed--for the second time--in the Senate. While most of our Senators voted for it, by and large, most of the heat and attention was found on the right. To the degree that people on our side got aroused by the issue, it was dictated by the question of having 200K or so "guest workers".


People on our side have reacted to the bill's quashing by saying, "Well, in '09, we'll have a Dem Congress and a Dem President, so we'll be able to draft a better bill." Sorry, but no, and no. We don't care about immigration--it's not something that we're passionate about--so you'll have to forgive me if I'm highly sceptical that "we'll get around to it".


Bottom line: the *only* way politicians will pay attention to our concerns on this issue is if they look back on the wreck and ruin of their political careers and see that those careers foundered on the Scylla and Charibdis of immigration and Iraq.



ad astra, per aspera // keep calm & carry on

[ Parent ]
I agree that her comments (4.00 / 5)
and actions regarding immigration need to be taken into account when deciding whom to support for the primary that is shaping up.

One thing that enters into my mind is the following: we all realize how difficult CO-04 is for a Democrat to win.  At a minimum then, I want to repeat the effects of the 2006 election: forcing Republicans to spend millions of dollars for a candidate that can't garner 50% of the vote.

On a slightly different tack, I think it's harsh and short-sighted for people to say they won't support Angie because she lost once but that they'll support Markey because Matsunaka (who lost twice) is backing her.  I'm willing to listen to what Markey might offer, but Angie would have an advantage of having some infrastructure already in place from the last cycle.  That to me translates to money that wouldn't have to be spent on Markey trying to establish her own infrastructure.

A Responsible Plan for Iraq: endorsed by Jared Polis


Test. (0.00 / 0)
This is a test. I have been attempting several time to post a comment on this thread and receive an error page. If this works, then I can find if its the content in my comment.

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The Soul of Colorado has been pierced (4.00 / 1)
by 1023 and is inexcusable.
The special session and 1023 are very important and I agree with Luis. This one law had a profound effect on the â??soulâ?? of Colorado.  Prior to 2006, we had demonstrated that we could elect two Hispanics to federal office. That was huge. The Latino community was feeling that their voice was being heard because they had elected leaders. (to be continued)

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[ Parent ]
Soul (continued) (4.00 / 1)
But it was short-lived and 1023 had a lot to do with the attitude that has since prevailed in Colorado.  That is that the Latino community can be used as a scapegoat with no consequence. And Angie demonstrated this more than any other candidate with her â??Look at me, Iâ??m toughâ?? ads. They backfired and she lost the election because Latinos went to third party candidate or didnâ??t vote. Thatâ??s why Angie lost. So why should she be supported when she ran a bad campaign. It could have been different. I had high hopes. Until she ran the racially motivated ads that could only be interpreted as trying to attract swing votes in a district with pockets of deep red. But as I stated to Angie and others, Democrats will not win on an Anti-Immigration platform. Why would an anti-immigration voter vote for a Dem when they have the Repugs?

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[ Parent ]
Soul (Part III of 4) (4.00 / 2)
And as for Sen. Fitz-Gerald, as Senate leader, she had the opportunity to fix 1023 this year. But when asked if she would try to fix 1023, she said â??We ainâ??t going there!â?? In the face of hearing of preventive health services being denied because of the proof of citizenship requirement, she demonstrated she didnâ??t care!! That told me more of her character and she lost my support at that very moment. She was scared to make a fix for a law that is hurting residents in our state!! When I read the campaign rhetoric that she has courage and has been a tough state legislator, I reflect back to her statement that day at our luncheon.  Anyone with courage and compassion would have taken this issue on and tried to fix it.

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[ Parent ]
Soul (Part IV of 4) (4.00 / 2)
We are Colorado. Latinos are the fabric of our state. There can be no tolerance for racial scapegoating politics â?? especially from Democrats, the inclusive party. And as Luis has so eloquently written, the special session was nothing less that racially motivated scapegoating politics because the legislators knew and admitted that the laws being passed would do nothing to solve the problems. But they didnâ??t consider the effect on the spirit of the people and the consequences of being role-models by saying that itâ??s ok to openly demonstrate intolerance and hatred for the immigrants (or brown skinned people). Very sad.

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